POLL: Jedi Exile

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Would you like to see Exile become a feature of Jedi Learners or not?

Yes, exile is a reasonable punishment for Jedi players who are irresponsible, and it counters the cons of Perma Death nicely.
9
45%
Maybe, I'm sort of between exile and only increasing the experience loss + branch loss per death.
7
35%
No, absolutely not, I do not like the idea of exile or any notion even related to permanent or harsh punishment with Jedi.
4
20%
 
Total votes: 20

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POLL: Jedi Exile

Post by Violet » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:32 am

Alright, don't freak out everybody! This is just a poll, and please read the entire post before casting your vote as it's not entirely what you think it is.

In the past and today it is continuously argued that Perma Death was a feature which should have remained part of the Jedi class back in Pre-Publish 9. Why? Because SOE were faced with a new kind of challenge once the Village system was brought in. Here's a list of the problems in their order of severity:

A) Jedi was unquestionably EASY to get, so easy in fact, it became a "nobody" class. There used to be a point in SWG where you would see a Jedi and feel like you were staring at your favourite celebrity. Of course we may never see those days again thanks to SOE, SWGEmu, and a pile of private servers who decided to give it just as easy or worse... free. It's become old, washed up, boring, unchallenging, imbalanced, and whatever else you want to name it. It is time for change. Back in the hologrind of Pre-Publish 9 it was a major thing to unlock Jedi because the system may have been easy, yet boring as far as narrative form is concerned (story)? But it was still very time consuming and that is usually enough for most players.

B) By taking away Pre-Publish 9 they suddenly had to rebalance the entire Jedi class, introducing Jedi Disciplines. In pre-9 you would be able to have every single skill and ability possible, and the only price was grinding hoardes of Jedi experience to get to Master rank. Today you know this system as Lightsabers, Enhancer, Defender, Force Powers, Force Healing, and Andromeda's exclusive Archivist discipline coming soon.

From my personal opinion I feel the three things SOE did correctly with Jedi (thank you Raph Koster) was the coming of Force Sensitive, the Force Ranking System, and Jedi Skill Templates.

Force Sensitive was a neccesity you just could not afford to miss in a game as in-depth as this. Everybody knows you don't just master 10 professions and poof you're a sci-fi wizard. Force Sensitive added depth to the story, made Jedi feel more like they should, and even better? It offered something to virtually every single player, Jedi or not. It became a choice that was freely made by players.

The Force Ranking System was a brilliant idea to ascend in power by earning it in PvP. Not entirely perfect, but the biggest flaw of all was imbalancing Dark vs. Light and forcing their benefits to unpopular Disciplines. SOE made a mistake on this part, especially with Force Powers being as terrible at it is, Light always had the advantage hence why Dark Jedi were considered the most skilled PvP Jedi on any server almost (and I was a Templar III of Starsider).

But the biggest kick up the butt was that disciplines were intended with freedom of choice, a Jedi had 250-24 (Force Sensitive) = 226 Skillpoints to freely balance across a template of their choosing. Due to poor balance between the roles, this meant Master Lightsaber was mandatory, Force Powers was so weak you needed very high FRS ranking to be effective, Healer 4xx4 was mandatory, and then it was a choice between Defender or Enhancer pretty much. Not much freedom if you ask me?

All of this combined, was what made Jedi incredibly weak at higher ranks, but more powerful at lower ranks. One of the reasons I refuse to play SWGEmu even after Publish 9 is because I know no matter what, even if I were to reach Rank 11 Light Jedi with a full Enhancer template, I will still not be able to beat a Master Fencer defense stacker in PvP. Why? I can't touch them with my lightsaber, and I can't keep my force high enough to weaken them in time. In fact, this was one of the reasons the Dark Jedi were incredibly effective at dispersing stackers. Force Powers was a valuable weapon against the non-Jedi types.

Regardless, on Andromeda all of these issues have been taken care of and we believe we've achieved a steady state of balance that puts Jedi in line where it should be. The final question is repurposing a new system that is designed to punish sloppy or lazy Jedi players, based around the idea of Perma Death [color=ff0001]BUT IT IS NOT PERMA DEATH[/color]. Let us explain our proposed system for a new, more reasonable condition of punishment to Jedi players:

Previously Perma Death meant the total deletion of your character and all items, credits, and houses went with them. All of your fine hard work taken away due to a system that was probably not entirely balanced. It was harsh, no doubt. It did control the Jedi population, but it also drove players away from the game. Here's our new proposed system:

- Due to our timeline (a year before the events of Rogue One), it was of course extremely rare to see a Jedi running around the galaxy. Most were dead, in exile, or turned to the dark side if not worse. We believe Jedi deserve to play in harsh environments with harsh laws. It kept the class interesting, challenged the player to do whatever was required in order to survive. We have given jedi of the Knight rank and above the true power they deserve, and made Learner ranks (Initiate/Padawan) weaker as they should remain.

- ONLY Jedi of the Initiate/Padawan rank will be under risk for now, as it's too early to say anything for Knights or higher. We believe taking away someone's hard work and an entire character + belongings is far too much and it definitely will not fly in todays community.


Introducing Jedi Exile!

So what is the difference between Jedi Exile and the old Perma Death?


Firstly let's base these examples on a Jedi of Initiate or Padawan level receiving either punishment after 5 deaths within 12 hours -- This is where we would likely start our testing and balance theory as well. So vote on these terms, though they ARE subject to change.

Addtionally: Visibility range goes up from 32m to 64m (this is the range required to be caught and placed on the Bounty Hunter terminals) - Scrapped this, could go to 48 or stay at 32 as originally designed.


--Death will completely delete your character, all belongings, and progress forcing you to start over from fresh. This is NOT what we want or will do, but instead create a new solution that punishes Jedi players similar to it.

--Exile will strip you of all your Jedi rankings and disciplines, reset your experience to 0 (unless you are in the negative), and strip you of all titles and robes. Your lightsaber will remain but will be unusable of course. You will be bumped back to Force Sensitive status and forced to retake the learner trials again. You at least keep your character and any non-Jedi or Force Sensitive branches that were previously gained. We are considering wiping all Force Sensitivity on exile, but for now this could be considered too harsh. This is what we are proposing, so nobody loses anything but time and experience. All things which are key parts of SWG's structure and completely free to obtain.


Is exile a risk all Jedi characters fall under? Yes but only until they unlock the Knight level. Once a Jedi has reached the rank of Knight successfully, they are immune to exile and have ascended the trials proving they are worthy to hold their lightsaber and the alpha power.

Ok, so we have a very reasonable solution to controlling the lower ranked Jedi population and ensuring only the skilled achieve the higher ranks. But what about the actual unlock process? Kept under tight wraps, but we promise our Trials (both Knight and Padawan level) will not be for the faint of heart and NO easy mode will be given. Players will experience an entirely new, custom Jedi unlock method that forces players to think outside of the box. Everything is brand new, will never be seen on the likes of other servers.

Lastly we want to talk about Jedi Experience decay. It is common for many Jedi to hide in their houses waiting for their Bounty Visibility to wear off, and we would never stop players doing that of course. It involved a cowardly tactic of inactively sitting in your house for 7 days just to evade all risk of being hunted because you got sloppy on your grind. So instead we're going to make Jedi Experience decay if the player does not earn a set quota within a time period. We are also re-enabling the discipline purge mechanic. This is where a Jedi below Knight level is able to lose entire Jedi Discipline branch boxes when dying more than once to a Bounty Hunter, PvP, or PvE within a short amount of time. Teaching the Jedi to be less irresponsible and less careless during their grind.


So, do you approve of exile? Or feel Jedi should not have any kind of punishment?
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Re: POLL: Jedi Exile

Post by Violet » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:08 pm

AethisRex wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:13 pm
This has a been a topic of great concern ever since the jedi class came out and servers were increasing Jedi in hordes.. the truth is, that this may sound great on paper.. it will drive people to rage quit when applied. What fun is it to have a Ferrari if you all you do with it is to store to in your garage?? As a former live Jedi, and beta tester of the original game.. I can tell you that one of my most prized memories in gaming is achieving my Jedi, and followed by my full template Jedi. There is a reason why perma death was never implemented, because it would completely alienate 99% of all gamers. This game's trophy reward is the Jedi class.

Saying that, perhaps we have a feature that locks your jedi at login for a defined period of time. Or make the xp loss greater than 250kxp.

Is this
I dont want to sound like I am not acknowledging peoples opinion, but I do not think you've completely read and understand what I am proposing. I am not permanently killing anybodies characters. No death is involved at all. What it is, is an exile or "erase" of jedi skill boxes and jedi status, forcing you to re-take trials and simply try again. It does not restrict, it does not limit, it's entirely down to the player's freedom. Jedi is an alpha class that did not have alpha class power in SWG. On Andromeda, they do and WILL at Knight. People will quickly realise the difference between a Knight and a Padawan now with the changes we make. We simply do not want 50'000 of these Knights running around rampant because the trials were too easy, and surviving as a padawan was not remotely challenging.

One way or another, this kind of system is going to work its way into Andromeda because I will not commit all of my time to improving this game and fixing its issues, only to see 30 Jedi freely running around one city having fun with no consequence. And an excuse of "rage quitting" is not one I acknowledge, it's childish and truly defines the personality of a person who cannot adapt to a new dynamic or system. Andromeda is simply not for them, and I respect that but they should probably go back to Flurry or something? We do NOT give things easy or free here, and Andromeda is for the players who truly want to feel proud of something they have earned. Sure, I'm thinking about those types of people too, but I am ALSO thinking about the people who spent months working hard on their unlock and exploring our new features, so they could achieve that feeling of success and inner passion. When you unlocked Jedi on live, you were a rare sight to behold BECAUSE you knew that you were probably one of the 10% of a server who actually achieved it. If you unlock Jedi on SWGEmu, you're not going to feel an inch bit of significance because you know in 2 weeks a ton of people will be rushing that Mellichae. It's all based on time....

Systems dry up because they have no punishment and no variety. Andromeda's has BOTH.

So, respectfully I must disregard anybody who uses the excuse of "rage quitting". I want reasonable, proper feedback and proper reasons explaining why this could be a bad idea, especially since it's not "Perma death", it's only exile. Essentially we are only slowing down your progress. If you want Jedi so badly? Go and take it. It's there, waiting for you and it always will be with our system. If you make it to Knight, you never have to worry about losing your progress again. That's the reward. In fact what you suggested "limiting the use of their Jedi character"? is even worse.
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Re: POLL: Jedi Exile

Post by BobBroccoli » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:24 pm

Ive had a chance to have a little think about the proposed changes to Jedi here
My initial thoughts are that the 'exile' system could work well with a little tweaking.
I think the 5 deaths in 12 hours is not really that big a problem for a Jedi. They just die 4 times and don't log in for a few hours. (there could be an issue with clone camping in a small amount of situations I guess)
I would think a longer period, say 5 deaths in 5 days would be more of a deterrent to taking too many risks.

The big issue I have is with Knights 'earning' the ability to have no worry about this kind of thing at all. I don't see a gameplay justification for this, it will just end up with people doing the grind to Knight in secret and then just running around with abandon once they hit Knight.
Surely as a Knight is much more powerful, the penalties should be harsher if anything.

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Re: POLL: Jedi Exile

Post by Violet » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:36 pm

BobBroccoli wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:24 pm
Ive had a chance to have a little think about the proposed changes to Jedi here
My initial thoughts are that the 'exile' system could work well with a little tweaking.
I think the 5 deaths in 12 hours is not really that big a problem for a Jedi. They just die 4 times and don't log in for a few hours. (there could be an issue with clone camping in a small amount of situations I guess)
I would think a longer period, say 5 deaths in 5 days would be more of a deterrent to taking too many risks.

The big issue I have is with Knights 'earning' the ability to have no worry about this kind of thing at all. I don't see a gameplay justification for this, it will just end up with people doing the grind to Knight in secret and then just running around with abandon once they hit Knight.
Surely as a Knight is much more powerful, the penalties should be harsher if anything.
This I have definitely considered Bobbi, and yes Knight will get punishments besides FRS. But I did not want to overload peoples minds with more than they could handle. The mechanics of time and days are also heavily up for debate. I was just using it as a pitch to propose the system to players. I'm glad you approve though. Logically in our timeline and Star Wars in general, it all makes sense.
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Jaxun
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Re: POLL: Jedi Exile

Post by Jaxun » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:35 pm

I do approve of the system given the discussion at Sundays clobbering and the implementation suggested there. The 5 deaths in 24 hrs is reasonable but wouldn't someone just bench there Jedi for the rest of the day if he gets killed a few times.
The 25k do over 4 days also reasonable. I think we agreed on a daily penalty not hourly but I can't remember the rate of loss? I dont know if it was suggested, and may not matter since there is already a natural cap on lost xp since you can only store so much and you agreed not to take us into the negative, but maybe turn the lose off after 10 days.
That would make 14 days without playing jedi i would think that means they have a serious reason for not logging in. Natural disaster (I was off the game for some time after Katrina as I lost everything and had to relocate), medical or family emergencies, some of us are long haul drivers or offshore fisherman.
I love you guys are bringing these things up to the community before you implement them, letting us voice an opinion and giving us time to absorb change, not just springing things on us. Thank you!

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Re: POLL: Jedi Exile

Post by Violet » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:05 am

Jaxun wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:35 pm
I do approve of the system given the discussion at Sundays clobbering and the implementation suggested there. The 5 deaths in 24 hrs is reasonable but wouldn't someone just bench there Jedi for the rest of the day if he gets killed a few times.
The 25k do over 4 days also reasonable. I think we agreed on a daily penalty not hourly but I can't remember the rate of loss? I dont know if it was suggested, and may not matter since there is already a natural cap on lost xp since you can only store so much and you agreed not to take us into the negative, but maybe turn the lose off after 10 days.
That would make 14 days without playing jedi i would think that means they have a serious reason for not logging in. Natural disaster (I was off the game for some time after Katrina as I lost everything and had to relocate), medical or family emergencies, some of us are long haul drivers or offshore fisherman.
I love you guys are bringing these things up to the community before you implement them, letting us voice an opinion and giving us time to absorb change, not just springing things on us. Thank you!
We have to update this post xD this was the one we made when we initially wanted to pitch the idea to the community. Clobbering #13 was a blabber about it too, but we'll have refined details for you guys closer to jedi's release. Which is unfortunately pushed back to early September now, due to AGPL issues with SWGEmu (Thanks Toxic)
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Re: POLL: Jedi Exile

Post by Violet » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:14 am

After much positive feedback and an overall winning vote, Jedi Exile will be happening and we have begun refining the design for Jedi's release. We will have the heavy details out for you at Community Clobbering 15 or 16. Topic has been locked and voting closed.
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